tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496482.post5144837177393752655..comments2024-03-26T03:20:19.840-04:00Comments on For Some Value of "Magic": Python 3.0 Alarmism: Pay No AttentionStevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15732819755000554717noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496482.post-4306571502504107452007-01-19T01:37:00.000-05:002007-01-19T01:37:00.000-05:00My comments about Guido might have appeared crypti...My comments about Guido might have appeared cryptic when they weren't intended to be. It's simply that the reply I got wasn't addressed to a public list, and didn't contain much information anyway.<br /><br />Guido is quite capable of representing his own views and I don't want to put words in his mouth. By "address these issues" I simply meant "meet with the people involved in the other ports and get their views on migration to Python 3.0". Sorry if it sounded like more than that: I expect Guido's presentations to be technical, not political.<br /><br />There is, however, a <a href="http://us.pycon.org/TX2007/PythonDevPanel">Python Developers' Panel</a> at PyCon where it looks like these issues might be discussed. I have an idea they will also be the topic of conversation over many beers and meals.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15732819755000554717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496482.post-22742394451940995062007-01-19T01:19:00.000-05:002007-01-19T01:19:00.000-05:00As any language, operating system, or complex fram...As any language, operating system, or complex framework grows, two things happen. First, the project will reach a point where it needs to break from the past in order to make progress into the future. This may happen many times over the life of the project. The second is the project will grow beyond its existing ecosystem. Again this can happen many times over the projects life.<br /><br />When these two things happen at relatively the same time, there always seems to be this type of strife. I have seen it happen in countless open source projects, and many many closed source products. In all but one case (Fedora, which had other outside factors), did the project make a drastic Fork. Both Ruby and Perl are dealing with the same issues with new interpreter and language spec respectively.<br /><br />It is important to note that this is the second break from the past that python has made. I am always amazed at the places Python 1.5 keeps popping up. The 1.5 spec is solid, stable, and still popular. Some researchers where I work still use is and scoff at 'all that fancy stuff'.<br /><br />As the new larger python ecosystem becomes aclimated the fears will fade away. The aclimation will most likely include a better exposed development process, better understanding of that process, and some changes to that process. This is just what happens when more people with different views and requirements want to be involved. The re-commitment to timley python-dev summaries, summaries of other development forums, migration to svn, and the new bug tracking system are all evidence of this. It just means python is a very healthy language.<br /><br />I am a little suprized there is concern over IronPython given Microsoft's aparent commitment to the effort, it's very active development and Jim Hugunin's involvement in general python development. As for migrating to Python3.0 Jeremy Hylton will be giving a talk on a <a href="http://us.pycon.org/apps07/talks/?filter=ast"><br />transformation tool</a><br />for just that purpose, partially based on the AST.<br /><br />Looking over the list of talks, all the python implementations that I know of are well represented:<br />cPython<br />PyPy<br />Jython<br />IronPython<br />IPython<br />Parrot<br /><br />I am assuming your cryptic comment about Guido and PyCon are about his Python3000 keynote and the Pyhon-Dev panel. PyCon doesn't feel like an opertunity to resolve the issues, as much as the resolutions, the sharing of knowledge and understanding, being the inevitable end result. No one speech or panel will do the trick, but the combined message from all the presentations is overwhelming. Everyone is looking forward to Python 3.0; no one is waiting, holding off development, or forking. People are doing amazing, amazing things now, with ambitious plans for the future.<br /><br />Ok, that was much more than I intended to write, it just pressed a button I guess.Doug Napoleonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07331585381804299154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496482.post-77810292662360725712007-01-18T23:46:00.000-05:002007-01-18T23:46:00.000-05:00Thanks for reading, Steve! I agree that alarmism o...Thanks for reading, Steve! I agree that alarmism only goes so far, and that <a href="http://ironfroggy-code.blogspot.com/2007/01/snake-pit-is-about-to-burst.html#comment-1594021111480543223">the "excited" camp</a> will do best to follow up with some good, calm info.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com